Poll

Does the use of third party reports violate fair ethics of the game?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!  (Read 15884 times)

Anime Sucks

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Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« on: August 11, 2006, 10:07:35 PM »
The topic of third party reports came up in the chat, and I wanted to begin a lively debate of the ethical use of third party reports.

So, who wants to take the side of "Against Third Party Reports" and who wants to take the side of "Hi, I'm a Retard!"?

darkstar2374383

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2006, 10:11:38 PM »
*cough* <impersonation> "Actual Re-inactment" <the_fifth_horseman> Id like to take the side of "Hi, I'm a Retard!" </impersonation> *cough*

Well, Im against third party reports. If you report someone else being pked then it obviously means your not getting pked enough yourself.
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xoid

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2006, 11:11:55 PM »
Against. You wanna report me? Fine. Do it when I PK you. Third party reports prevent consenting private wars from being held, where both parties agree to not report each other as long as they only kill each other. This shit only wastes the time of Bounty Hunters and the "victims" on either side.

Third party reports also make it easier for dirty dirty zergers to get you onto a PK list. Even if those numbnuts at Brainstock finally allow zerg hunting, there are still plenty of zerg hunters who are gonna get burned by this completely inane allowance that they make.


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Moria

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2006, 12:09:19 AM »
Third party reports should not be the basis of PK reporting... but if a screenshot is questioned and someone else happened to be at the spot at the same time... having the third party report could be used as additonal evidence which would be included with the first party report. But having a third party report alone as the sole evidence of a PK is absolutely ludacris because they are extremely easy to fake.

Kristi of the Dead

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2006, 12:40:42 AM »
well as one of the two no's I'd like to say that 3rd party reports allow for safer coverage and patrols of an area because there are more people reported.  By taking 3rd party reports you get a better feel for the amount and location of PKers.  Simply put I like the idea of taking advantage of a feature Kevin added a while back,  it's nice to see who's killing who, and then actually use that information for the good of non pking survivors.  And us numbnuts at brainstock are pretty open to discussion many folks have been let off the list by coming and explaining their situation, basically if you're in a consensual PK war tell us and generally you're off the list.  And as for 3rd party reports being easy to fake...I make ALOT of graphic images...third party reports aren't so much easier than first person reports to fake.  Certainly not so easy that you could make it the basis for an arguement against 3rd party reports.

And as part of the recent changes to the PK list there we'll prolly not accept 3rd party reports on zerg hunters who are registered or some such depending on how it turns out (that's my little contribution cause I happen to like the idea of zerg hunters).  What the numbnuts at brainstock are concerned about is protecting survivors... our list isn't about revenge it's about making surviors as safe as they can be.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 12:50:17 AM by Kristi of the Dead »


Anime Sucks

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2006, 12:52:42 AM »
I'm curious as the who the hidden "no" is...

my basic feeling on it is, if the person cares so much about being pk'd, then they'd report it themselves.

Kristi of the Dead

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2006, 01:16:58 AM »
I'm curious as the who the hidden "no" is...

my basic feeling on it is, if the person cares so much about being pk'd, then they'd report it themselves.

what if they don't meta game?  What if they're new?  What if they don't speak English so well...

Again though by saying "if the person cares so much" you're inferring that a PK list should be about revenge.  It shouldn't matter if the victim cares or not it's the Pker that did the killing and survivors are safer by being able to recognize who pk's.  I feel safer with my list of Pkers that includes third party reports, I don't sleep in buildings with peoples names who light up...I don't kill everyone I come across that's on our list that's what the rogues gallery is for.  I can see screenshots of the PKer's actual pks and make a decision for my self if I want to kill them based on the research I'm able to do on them using the rogues gallery.

I can understand some folks don't share those thoughts but I also think that two intelligent people can have two different opinions about something.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 01:22:39 AM by Kristi of the Dead »


cyberbob

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2006, 01:18:59 AM »
Heh. I'm the hidden "No". The CDF hasn't had any false reports (or very few) with our 3rd party reporting.

Although, the average level of retardation and sneakiness in the CDF is very low compared to most other places...


I'd agree with you except that I think you are wrong.

Anime Sucks

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2006, 01:34:07 AM »
what if they don't meta game?  What if they're new?  What if they don't speak english so well...

Again though by saying "if the person cares so much" you're inferring that a PK list should be about revenge.  It shouldn't matter if the victim cares or not it's the Pker that did the killing and survivors are safer by being able to recognize who pk's.  I feel safer with my list of Pkers that includes third party reports...I don't kill everyone I come accross that's on our list that's what the rogues gallery is for.  I can see screenshots of the PKer's actual pks and make a decission for my self if I was to kill them based on the research I'm able to do on them using the rogues gallery.

I can understand some folks don't share those thoughts but I also think that two intelligent people can have two different oppinions about something.

But can you honestly say that the majority of the people over at Brainstock use the list to avoid people rather than kill them for revenge?  I understand the concept of avoidance, and its a good thing :) but, in a player vs player game, having a pk list or a rogues gallery is like saying "hey, these guys are open season to kill without punishement."

If the person doesn't metagame, then they are going to deal with their pker issue personally rather than report it.  The pker will be bound to kill again, and more than likely kill someone on our respective groups, and report it himself.  Not much we can do if they are new, but we were all new once, and we self-educated ourselves about the particulars of the game.  If they don't speak english, well, unfortunately... in a game that is predominately english, and a majority of english speaking users, that will be quite tough for them.

I just feel the accepting third party reports complicates the matter more, and sure, like you said... if there was some sort of reason they should get off the list they could come to you guys and say "hey... I shouldn't be on the list because of blah blah blah".. and thats fine, and I'm glad you guys are open to that.  But what if the person doesn't meta game, or is new or doesn't know about brainstock, or doesn't speak english very well? :D

Heh. I'm the hidden "No". The CDF hasn't had any false reports (or very few) with our 3rd party reporting.

Although, the average level of retardation and sneakiness in the CDF is very low compared to most other places...

I didn't expect it to be you, honestly :)

But, I could care less how a group derives their proof of deaths within their own group.  I'm sure every group does that.  "hey bill, you just got killed... looky <screenshot>".

I'm more talking in the general sense of using it goes on a massive tool that highlights their name as a pker for bounty hunters to see.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 01:37:10 AM by Anime Sucks »

cyberbob

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2006, 01:42:53 AM »
???

My point was, that the CDF uses 3rd party reporting on our PK reports, but then went on to muse about how my vote could possibly be changed, as the average level of stupdity in the CDF is far lower than in more public forums.


I'd agree with you except that I think you are wrong.

Anime Sucks

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2006, 01:55:47 AM »
???

My point was, that the CDF uses 3rd party reporting on our PK reports, but then went on to muse about how my vote could possibly be changed, as the average level of stupdity in the CDF is far lower than in more public forums.

I think I might have misunderstood your point.  :)  Internal reports are internal reports... Hell Cannibal Corps reports people for saying stupid shit to other people.  Those private reports they're private... public reports are a different beast.

cyberbob

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2006, 02:00:11 AM »
Yup.

Anyways, I changed my vote. I'm very good at talking myself out of things. :)


I'd agree with you except that I think you are wrong.

Kristi of the Dead

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2006, 02:23:43 AM »
But can you honestly say that the majority of the people over at Brainstock use the list to avoid people rather than kill them for revenge?  I understand the concept of avoidance, and its a good thing :) but, in a player vs player game, having a pk list or a rogues gallery is like saying "hey, these guys are open season to kill without punishment."

Yeah...in all honesty the majority of DEM members use the list for avoidance as most of us don't really hunt Pkers (though there are sub groups that do).  And as I said they don't kill anyone for revenge we try to kill Pkers to make it harder for them to kill again not as a revenge.  I actually think it says hey watch out for this guy here's the evidence we have on him check it out, but I can see your point.

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If the person doesn't metagame, then they are going to deal with their pker issue personally rather than report it.  The pker will be bound to kill again, and more than likely kill someone on our respective groups, and report it himself.  Not much we can do if they are new, but we were all new once, and we self-educated ourselves about the particulars of the game.  If they don't speak English, well, unfortunately... in a game that is predominately English, and a majority of English speaking users, that will be quite tough for them.

again whether or not they deal with the Pker issue personally doesn't really matter.  What we're concerned with here is identifying those folks that PK.  And I lurk on a couple PK forums and I'll tell ya they tell a different story about getting reported.  I don't know if you're familiar but many of them on a regular basis lament their in ability to get noticed at all.  So I think the "no doubt they'll get reported anyway" argument doesn't really float.  We get people posting on our forums a list of their kills to get noticed...it's apparently hard to get on a list.

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I just feel the accepting third party reports complicates the matter more, and sure, like you said... if there was some sort of reason they should get off the list they could come to you guys and say "hey... I shouldn't be on the list because of blah blah blah".. and thats fine, and I'm glad you guys are open to that.  But what if the person doesn't meta game, or is new or doesn't know about brainstock, or doesn't speak English very well? :D

well since we're using  quotes then I'll use one of yours :P quite tough for them.  It's better to be able to at least see these folks and be able to recognize them.  However the very nature of an exclusion from our PK list is that you're part of a group that does consensual Pk's or what not this doesn't seem to be the same thing.  The person who can't report PK's by definition doesn't belong to a group.  We instruct all of our bounty hunters to post a link to the charges against the person they're bounty hunting so that person can see for himself. 

The point of what I was trying to say with the "don't speak English very well" thing is that the value of being able to identify PKer's is too great to loose that information because that person for whatever reason might not report it.  I mean then otherwise what exactly is the benefit that Kevan added by making it possible (fairly recently) to see who's killing who in a building?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 02:29:49 AM by Kristi of the Dead »


xoid

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2006, 04:29:23 AM »
Warning. This post is rather fragmented, and I don't feel like rewriting it. Again.

We instruct all of our bounty hunters to post a link to the charges against the person they're bounty hunting so that person can see for himself.

And when they don't? They get reported here. Sloppy book keeping on BubbaBuoy's behalf was his downfall. (There is no way an out-of-the-way building with no tactical value filled up with people in the time I was offline.)

As to your other claims: "Just tell us about the consensual PK war on our forums...", uh, yeah. You already stated that many people don't meta game. You might also note that many people could care less about getting PKed. I made my first report. Ever. I've been PKed dozens of times, though I couldn't give a shit it. A revive is a few steps away at most. (Only reason I reported BubbaBuoy was due to his not giving the warning.

What about people PKing me when they have a very good reason? If I accept it as just getting PKed because I'm a member of ASS, yet some random survivor decides to report to Brainstock? The guy who gets me (because I got him) now has a bounty. "But he can come tell us!", yeah. He could. That doesn't mean he's not going to get PKed before he can. PKed because you added him to the list when I didn't want him to be.

Hell, because of the 50 person limit, most people aren't even going to hear your warning, and as such, your reasoning is flawed.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 08:40:28 AM by xoid »


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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2006, 07:58:26 AM »
I voted "No", but I probably missed the question's meaning in some way.

I'm all for Third Party Reporting, mind you, but purely for selfish reasons.  Third party reporting leads to more incidents of bounty hunters killing bounty hunters than anything else, and I'm all for THAT ^^