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Does the use of third party reports violate fair ethics of the game?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!  (Read 15567 times)

Kristi of the Dead

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2006, 09:03:14 AM »
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Warning. This post is rather fragmented, and I don't feel like rewriting it. Again.

And when they don't? They get reported here. Sloppy book keeping on BubbaBuoy's behalf was his downfall. (There is no way an out-of-the-way building with no tactical value filled up with people in the time I was offline.)


As to your other claims: "Just tell us about the consensual PK war on our forums...", uh, yeah. You already stated that many people don't meta game. You might also note that many people could care less about getting PKed. I made my first report. Ever. I've been PKed dozens of times, though I couldn't give a shit it. A revive is a few steps away at most. (Only reason I reported BubbaBuoy was due to his not giving the warning.

right, AGAIN it doesn't matter what the victim feels or wants...it doesn't matter at all.  What we want is a list of PKers and we get a bigger more complete list with 3rd party reports.  It doesn't matter if the victim loves getting pked and plans to get killed every sunday...it doesn't matter at all.  We're the one's keeping the list so ah it matters to us.

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What about people PKing me when they have a very good reason? If I accept it as just getting PKed because I'm a member of ASS, yet some random survivor decides to report to Brainstock? The guy who gets me (because I got him) now has a bounty. "But he can come tell us!", yeah. He could. That doesn't mean he's not going to get PKed before he can. PKed because you added him to the list when I didn't want him to be.

Hell, because of the 50 person limit, most people aren't even going to hear your warning, and as such, your reasoning is flawed.

It doesn't matter if he had a good reason to kill you...we can pick at extreme examples all day....it just doesn't matter.  You can't seem to let go of that thought "a PK list is about revenge"  We're not trying to make things even.  We're making a list of Pker's and if you get pked and someone sees it and reports it then that person is a PKER by definition.

Also I don't think you guys have been paying attention to how TBM has and will be handling Brainstock reports...in the future he won't take a bounty claims for someone on our list.  The flaw in your logic is 1. you pick that one sentence and ignore all the other points around it which support my statment. 2. your problems stem more from competing lists than from us accepting 3rd party reports. 3. Our PK list isn't about evening out the score or anysort of revenge it's about knowlege and I know a few more PKers than you guys do because of our list.

The same goes for you sirens..what kills more bounty hunters than anything is competing lists not the fact that we take thrid party reports.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 09:14:20 AM by Kristi of the Dead »


xoid

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2006, 09:45:37 AM »
I did put a disclaimer that the post was rather fragmented. (By implication my reasoning might not have been at it's best. That's what happens when you start writing, go out, come back, etc.)

This thought just struck me: if your list was not about revenge, why keep tallies of their kills? It seems to me if it was truly about avoidance that there should be some background on the PKer (Do they only target non-descripts? Zergs? Are they indiscriminate killers? Do they only target someone on "their" turf? Etc.), their kill frequency since first getting reported, and you shouldn't have bounty hunters working off it.


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Kristi of the Dead

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2006, 09:52:36 AM »
I did put a disclaimer that the post was rather fragmented. (By implication my reasoning might not have been at it's best. That's what happens when you start writing, go out, come back, etc.)

then perhaps you should have stopped short at claiming I had flawed logic.

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This thought just struck me: if your list was not about revenge, why keep tallies of their kills? It seems to me if it was truly about avoidance that there should be some background on the PKer (Do they only target non-descripts? Zergs? Are they indiscriminate killers? Do they only target someone on "their" turf? Etc.), their kill frequency since first getting reported, and you shouldn't have bounty hunters working off it.

simple some folks are more dangerous than others it's important to gauge how dangerous, also it's important to allow for a natural way of getting off the list.  Say you're a reformed PKer or you killed a few people before you knew that people cared and kept track.  Bounty points = a way to track how naughty a person is and a way to get off the list among other things...if you would visit the rogues Gallery and click on the numbers next to the name you sure a shit can look up who they target where they where killed and by clicking their name you get their profile.  You can see who reported them and when and what forum too it's really a nice tool that helps.  And your claim that we shouldn't have bounty hunters working off of it is suported by what?  Why shouldn't we?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 09:55:14 AM by Kristi of the Dead »


xoid

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2006, 10:03:12 AM »
simple some folks are more dangerous than others it's important to gauge how dangerous, also it's important to allow for a natural way of getting off the list. Say you're a reformed PKer or you killed a few people before you knew that people cared and kept track.  Bounty points = a way to track how naughty a person is and a way to get off the list among other things...
And if someone has a kills frequency instead? You can gauge if they are a frequent PKer or someone who done it once several months ago. Getting "off the list" as you say doesn't seem to do all that much. Once you are reported to the DEM, you'll always have that little red border around you if you request a revive. If you are going to mark people for "life", then why do you let them get off the list? If they've served their time...

if you would visit the Rogues Gallery and click on the numbers next to the name you sure a shit can look up who they target where they where killed and by clicking their name you get their profile. You can see who reported them and when and what forum too it's really a nice tool that helps.
I know that. How do you think I found out who collected mine? What I was saying was is that there should be a short description there so people don't have to slog through n reports to get a picture of what's going on. When you are trying to avoid getting PKed, every minute wasted reading report after report increases the chance of the possibly hostile person coming online. Of course, you could just turn tail and run, but why waste AP if you know the PKer is a member of Turban Dead? Just enter a profile quick as you please and you're safe.

And your claim that we shouldn't have bounty hunters working off of it is suported by what?  Why shouldn't we?
You said it was for avoidance, not revenge. If it's truly not for revenge, then why bother killing anyone on it?


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Black Mask

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2006, 10:11:08 AM »
Quote from: Xoid
This shit only wastes the time of Bounty Hunters and the "victims" on either side.
I'm in favour of third party reports.
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Kristi of the Dead

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2006, 10:14:23 AM »
And if someone has a kills frequency instead? You can gauge if they are a frequent PKer or someone who done it once several months ago. Getting "off the list" as you say doesn't seem to do all that much. Once you are reported to the DEM, you'll always have that little red border around you if you request a revive. If you are going to mark people for "life", then why do you let them get off the list? If they've served their time...

so the real arguement here is that our list should be more convienent?  I"m not sure what you mean by marked for life.  If you get off the list you're off the list there's no lifelong grudge we don't have the storage to keep track of every single pker ever and it's kinda wierd that you would suggest we did.

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I know that. How do you think I found out who collected mine? What I was saying was is that there should be a short description there so people don't have to slog through n reports to get a picture of what's going on. When you are trying to avoid getting PKed, every minute wasted reading report after report increases the chance of the possibly hostile person coming online. Of course, you could just turn tail and run, but why waste AP if you know the PKer is a member of Turban Dead? Just enter a profile quick as you please and you're safe.

Geese that's another great feature of the rogue's gallery you can see who'l collecting you bounty how many points you have all manner of good info.

Again though your idea of convienence has nothing to do with the right or wrongness of 3rd party repots.  The fact that you can in fact research is a pretty good feature and when we get around to it we'll streamline it a bit. The Convience of that feature is not an effective arguement against 3rd party reports.  Which I'm sorry is a bit better than here as far as being able to research your targets goes.

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You said it was for avoidance, not revenge. If it's truly not for revenge, then why bother killing anyone on it?

The people on our list are not all innocent and as I said before our list is about making it harder for PKers to PK, and not revenge.  Killing them is just about the only real way of doing that...they then at least have to seek out a revive before going a spree...it makes it tougher for them to do their work.


Sonny

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2006, 10:29:39 AM »
I'm too lazy to read this all but I'll say my part.

Third party reports suck. Unless it's your group's PK list and not for anyone else then it's cool. So if a dude PKs a CDF dude and another CDF dude saw it then it could work. But some dude PKing a CDF dude? That ain't cool.

A perfect example of why it's dumb is when Cyberbob was reported for killing me.

xoid

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2006, 10:36:30 AM »
So the real arguement here is that our list should be more convienent?
No, I pretty much gave up on trying to argue against 3rd party reports a couple of posts back, so I decided just to nitpick instead.

I'm not sure what you mean by marked for life.  If you get off the list you're off the list there's no lifelong grudge we don't have the storage to keep track of every single pker ever and it's kinda wierd that you would suggest we did.
Really? I could've sworn that on the revive tool it says "former PKers show up in a dark red border".

The people on our list are not all innocent and as I said before our list is about making it harder for PKers to PK, and not revenge.  Killing them is just about the only real way of doing that...they then at leas\t have to seek out a revive before going a spree...it makes it tougher for them to do their work.
Then it's not about avoidance. It's about a deterrant.

A perfect example of why it's dumb is when Cyberbob was reported for killing me.
Sonny raises my main point of contention (for the actual topic, instead of what I was derailing it to) again.


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Kristi of the Dead

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2006, 11:01:00 AM »
Really? I could've sworn that on the revive tool it says "former PKers show up in a dark red border".
Actually it says:
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PKers with a current bounty in the Rogues Gallery get a thick red border, allowing those with a current bounty to be easily identified in the RevReq tool. Serial killers get a wide, bright red border. We request you consider not reviving PKers with a current bounty. Past PKers will get a thin dark red border around their entry.

So it does appear that we mark past pkers ON THE REVIVE REQUEST TOOL.  However past pkers get a different mark than PKers with a current bounty and we plainly ask people not revive those with Current bounty's.  Now that I see your point I can go on to answer you question which was
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If you are going to mark people for "life", then why do you let them get off the list? If they've served their time..

Them getting marked as FORMER pkers is a far far cry from them being put permanently on a PK list (and a completely different arguement than 3rd party reports being bad)...If they're not on the PK list they're not fair game to kill.  That's the benefit of not being on a Pk List.

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Then it's not about avoidance. It's about a deterrant.
if you're gonna critque what I say please read my posts above.  I said I use it as avoidance as do most folks in the DEM.  Most DEM members DON'T hunt bounties we've got other things to do and most people who sign up for the MPD or MFD have a different idea in mind of what they want to do than hunt PKers.  No that's left up to a few people who choose to do that...they act as a deterrant.  See there's two things going on here with our list...sort of a duality effect.  People are able to recognize more dangerous folks to not sleep with in a safe house.  Bounty hunters are able to recognize more pkers to shoot so the pker's job becomes harder.  These two things combine to act as a deterrant to PKing over all, the main point being that folks are able to recognize more PKers.

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Sonny raises my main point of contention (for the actual topic, instead of what I was derailing it to) again.
I don't know the specifics of sonny and cyberbob but here's a reason why it doesn't suck.  Sonny's more than welcome to come on over to brainstock and have a chat with PK report admins in the discussion thread about his beef.  And often if he can provide some proof that he's just josh'n with cyberbob or whatever pre arranged thing they have going on....poof he's off the list and not marked for life.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2006, 11:07:59 AM by Kristi of the Dead »


Sirens

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2006, 11:10:33 AM »
I'm not going to take sides, but I'd like to point out that despite having a current bounty (And thus my name outlined in red), I've used the Revive Request Tool and gotten revives several times now.

Valafar

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2006, 11:22:04 AM »
I agree third party reports are bad when misused. I'm talking Micro to Macro here. On  a large scale they cannot be allowed as there is not enough resources to investigate the crime. On a smaller scale an individual group could allow the report as long as they had the resources to figure out why the PK happened. IE: Checking out the main board lists. Contacting the groups involved etc. Or is if it was the PK of a fellow group member.
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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2006, 11:35:00 AM »
Wow, lively debate.  its healthy that we can actually get together and flame ourselves with feather whips

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Sonny raises my main point of contention (for the actual topic, instead of what I was derailing it to) again.
I don't know the specifics of sonny and cyberbob but here's a reason why it doesn't suck.  Sonny's more than welcome to come on over to brainstock and have a chat with PK report admins in the discussion thread about his beef.  And often if he can provide some proof that he's just josh'n with cyberbob or whatever pre arranged thing they have going on....poof he's off the list and not marked for life.

I think another point reason people may not goto another board is because they have "Brand Loyalty".  Resensitized and Brainstock is like a Pepsi/Coke debate.  Some people will only drink Pepsi, and some will only drink coke.  That will be the case with our respective boards.  What if the person doesn't want to go over to your board because they want to see our brand succeed the cola war?  and vice versa.  Would prolly qualify under the "tough titty" argument.

but yeah, the argument that only a select few use the rogues gallery to hunt can be applied here as well.  But the point is, people are still hunted under the proof of third party reports (which you don't care because pk reports on your board are supposed to be used as a deterrant).  I'm not bashing Brainstock (in this post, anyways).  My personal opinion is that third party reports goes against the ethical play of the game.

I'm not going to take sides, but ....

you voted no  ;P thats taking sides dear  :toot:

Sirens

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2006, 11:40:58 AM »
you voted no  ;P thats taking sides dear  :toot:

I meant in the debate of Xoid vs. Kristi  :roll:

Kristi of the Dead

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2006, 11:43:41 AM »
Wow, lively debate.  its healthy that we can actually get together and flame ourselves with feather whips

I know...I'm having a bit of fun chatting with you guys about this.

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I think another point reason people may not goto another board is because they have "Brand Loyalty".  Resensitized and Brainstock is like a Pepsi/Coke debate.  Some people will only drink Pepsi, and some will only drink coke.  That will be the case with our respective boards.  What if the person doesn't want to go over to your board because they want to see our brand succeed the cola war?  and vice versa.  Would prolly qualify under the "tough titty" argument.

I see your point here...and I and others have really been working on making some changes to make the two big PK lists more compatible.  Things like no 3rd party reports for zerg hunters and the like is prolly the wave of the future over at Brainstock.  We're hoping that by making our two PK list similar and using the tools that are already in place much of the problems pointed out above will be non existant...including brand association as the Admins for both lists will compare notes....hopefully anyway.

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but yeah, the argument that only a select few use the rogues gallery to hunt can be applied here as well.  But the point is, people are still hunted under the proof of third party reports (which you don't care because pk reports on your board are supposed to be used as a deterrant).  I'm not bashing Brainstock (in this post, anyways).  My personal opinion is that third party reports goes against the ethical play of the game.

See now I can't understand that...you know that being able to see who's killing who in a room wasn't always part of the game.  Kevan the guy who made it actually added it after I  had been playing for some time.  Is this information then useless...why would he put a feature into his game that seems to be against ethical play?


xoid

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Re: Debate: 3rd Party Reports!
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2006, 11:50:53 AM »
why would he put a feature into his game that seems to be against ethical play?

Kevan is lazy. We know this. He populates most of the drop down lists with the same function, despite the fact that 'cades cannot be healed, nor can any DNA be extracted from them. Kevan likely put this into place to allow people to target the actives, but allowed it to work both ways.


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